Why We Should Go Down Kicking and Screaming Before Virginia Tech Joins the SEC!
In the past few days since it became apparent that Texas A&M was spurning the future of the Big 12 for the SEC, we've heard rumblings of the SEC potentially extending an invitation for membership to Virginia Tech. Much conjecture and commentary has been offered up about this potential move, and most of it has been wholeheartedly in favor. I am wholeheartedly AGAINST Virginia Tech joining the SEC, IF such an invitation were to be extended. In this post I will explain how the potential move to the SEC is selfish, football-centric, short-sided and not a fit for Virginia Tech. Go inside to find out...
Who are these guys!?: Frittering away our meaningful rivalries
One of the biggest negatives of a move to the SEC would be the inevitable leaving behind of some of our most meaningful foes on the schedule. We have history (and a LONG one at that) with almost every school in the ACC. Going to a 14 or 16-team SEC would doom the chances to play those teams in football (as well as some other sports, but for the moment we're talking football) as it would likely be a 9-game conference schedule. Although there are reports that the NCAA is seeking a 13-game schedule in the future, a 13 game-schedule would still only allow us to schedule four out of conference (OOC) teams. Is our athletic department willing to schedule four of our rivals or former conference rivals every year? No. Nor should they be. When a schedule is the EXACT same every year, it kind of takes the fun out of it.
So who would we sacrifice? Obviously the Virginia rivalry would continue. Miami would probably be next on the list. Boston College could possibly be squeezed in just based on our recent history with them. Georgia Tech would be fourth on this list and after BC in that line of teams in the ACC teams that we have had mini-rivalries with. But again, there's no way we'd be scheduling the likes of four ACC teams OOC, or pending a conference breakdown if the ACC is raided, four teams of that caliber. One, the SEC schedule would provide so many rigors for us that we would need a couple of cream-puffs the likes of which we always schedule even now to get us through. And two, BOTH teams would have to agree to it. For Georgia Tech who already plays stiff SEC foe Georgia it would be doubtful that they'd like to add ANOTHER good SEC team (and yes this time I'm talking about us, hypothetically...it's eerie to say that though) to their non-conference slate. For BC, it's also doubtful they'd trek the 698 miles every other year to play a quasi-rival from two decades of the Big East and ACC days.
Granted, I'm the guy who sees it as silly that a team can have 4-5 legitimate "rivals" and think the term is pretty loosely applied. Therefore the BC and GT "rivalries" don't hold much water to me. The triple option annoys and bewilders me and I will never forget that Matt Ryan touchdown pass with :07 left. But, I can live without playing BC and GT if it puts our program in a better place. I'm just not 100% sure that's the case here.
Basketball: From the Cardiac Kids of the ACC to the Cardiac Arrest of the program
A move to the SEC would kill the basketball program. I know we're not world beaters (or at least not more than one or two times every couple of years), but every bit of legitimacy the ACC and having success in it has provided would go down the drain. Yes the SEC has Kentucky, Florida, Vanderbilt and Tennessee who was a product of Bruce Pearl and is likely not to have nearly as much success without him. But what else do they have? Folks, it's just NOT a basketball conference (well duh).
While I think that, yes, in the short-term going to the SEC would provide us with basketball splendor and success, it's not a feasible thing long-term. Plus, how many spots are we really going to ascend on the SEC totem pole? Like I said it's those four teams annually and that's pretty much it (I know there are flashes by teams like Georgia, Ole Miss, Miss St. and Alabama) but those are four pretty good teams. Teams the likes of which, in my honest opinion, we're not better than at the moment.
Just look at recruiting for a moment. If I need to back up my short-term success prediction I can easily do it here. Our team features six players from North Carolina, four players from The Commonwealth, one player from Maryland, one from Florida, one from Pennsylvania and one from the Netherlands. For the most part (especially the North Carolina part) that spells Tobacco Road. That's where we recruit, and that's where we SHOULD recruit for the most part. We've just been able to break in to that area and ride the coattails of UNC and Duke by parasitically picking up the recruits that they sifted through and are just under their radar. That might not sound glamorous to some, but those recruits are still the cream of the crop nationally, and many a team would do anything to land these guys.
The point is these guys go to Tobacco Road or ACC schools. Period. They come to the ACC because in the ACC, basketball is king. They are aware that at least historically, the ACC has always been the best basketball conference in the nation. The kids from that area come to the ACC to either play for Duke and UNC, or to play against Duke or UNC. How many North Carolinians, Virginians or Marylanders do you see bolting for the SEC? That's my point. If we go to the SEC, we're leaving that resource behind. ACC kids don't want to go play basketball in the SEC, and that's just how it is. The same is true for Women's Basketball at Tech. Duke and UNC are still powerhouses of women's landscape (though yes a few teams the likes of UConn, Tennessee and Stanford are possibly better year in and year out). Tobacco Road kids go to play for Tobacco Road/ACC schools. And although that's recruiting in general, where proximity is usually the biggest factor, this is even more so the case with ACC basketball.
Olympic and Non-Revenue Sports: Swimming and Diving team plane to College Station, TX now boarding
The title kind of makes the argument for me, but I'll delve into it a little more (Furrer4heisman alluded to this in his original FanShot about speculation of us joining the SEC). Granted there will be an increase in revenue from our football program if we join the SEC, and it's possible that it would be a significant one. But the question is, would we be losing more money from the Olympic and Non-Revenue sports? It's certainly possible. Whereas now we are traveling up and down the Atlantic Coast to play foes in the ACC (and as Jim Weaver suggested in a late interview on Friday, most of it by bus), we would now be expected to travel to Fayetteville, Baton Rouge, and College Station amongst others.
Although playing those teams on the road may not be a regularity for every sport or even every year (I don't know this answer, and really no one does until the new mega-SEC comes to fruition), this definitely would turn us into a "by-air" school for most every sport, including Olympic and Non-Revenue sports. So the question is, if we're leaving to turn more of a profit for the athletic department, we should examine the figures very carefully, because they could be tricky. There is a lot more to this potential decision than a lot of speculators are giving it credit for, and both fans and those speculators shouldn't just be wowed of the aesthetics of this. Just like everything in life, there are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes that should be considered.
The Football Question: Can we succeed in the all-powerful SEC?
This is the granddaddy of them all. The thought that's been on the collective minds of Tech fans, SEC fans and the national media alike since the possibility of Tech joining the SEC arose: Can we win? The Tech fans think the proof is in the pudding. We've won 10-games for seven seasons in a row and are the only team in the nation to do that. We've been to 18 consecutive bowl games. We've won 4 of 7 ACC crowns since joining the league (a league that fans of ACC teams and the national media alike at the time thought would demolish the Hokies), and we've played for a national championship. A compelling argument can be made for Tech succeeding in the SEC.
However, the ACC and the SEC are worlds apart. Not that I need to build up their résumé for anyone, but they have won SIX consecutive BCS national titles as a conference! SIX! That's just silly. But, for any of us who know a lot of SEC fans, they think Virginia Tech joining the conference would wipe us off the face of the Earth. And that is equally as silly. We are a Top-25 caliber football team no matter what conference we play in, including God's conference: The SEC.
If the question were could we compete in the SEC? I think the answer is a definitive yes. If the question is can we win 10-games in the SEC year in and year out? That's pretty hard to do, so probably not. Could we win an SEC title? I think that we could be in contention for that, even if maybe not originally. If the question is could we be a national championship contender in the SEC? I'll answer that question with another question: Are we now? And if so how serious of a contender are we?
I hate to be the guy who sits on the fence, but that's really what is required of a thoughtful analysis of Tech's chances in football in the SEC. We won't win them all, and we won't lose them all. Those who say that's the case are "Living in a bubble Tech fans" or "Overcompensating SEC supremacists." If we were to join the SEC, we could help our football program and we could hurt it. But as long as Beamer is at Tech, then the Hokies will continue to field a competitive team independent of what conference they play in.
We ARE Virginia Tech: Aren't we?
As Joe from TKP (The Key Play) says in his argument for Tech to accept an SEC bid should it come "As it stands, the ACC is the best fit for Virginia Tech. I cannot disagree with that." That's my biggest argument. The ACC SUITS us. We are exactly where we should be in the ACC (at least for right now), and I think that it would be incredibly hard to argue with that.
We (the school, the administration and boosters and fans alike) were giddy at the chances of joining the ACC. We begged at their doorstep in Greensboro for years to let us in to no avail. We hoped against hope that when the ACC announced expansion plans that we were in the mix, only to find out that the ACC preferred Syracuse for their NYC market. We required the services of one former Governor Mark Warner, who prodded UVA hard until they insisted on our inclusion. And ever since it's hard for one of us to say that we haven't felt constant joy and exuberance with our situation. It's PERFECT for us. PERFECT. The relationship the Tech and the ACC have cultivated is just budding, and to be honest I still feel like we're on our honeymoon.
Even though there are plenty who would try to dispel this notion, the Hokies are still very much underdogs, or at least on the national scene. I embrace our underdog mentality. I want to maintain it. We can still reach our goals being the underdog. Going to the SEC would make us an underdog of sorts, yes, in that we would now be underdogs in the SEC. But then to everybody else, we're still the SEC. The perception of our program changes. We join the conference that is holier than thou. We give in to the bullies who taunted us for so long and in a way we admit "You were right, we needed you. You guys are the best!" To me, that seems like an uncomfortable situation and a hierarchy of power that we will never crack that the true Hokie fans I know would be unnerved by. We would be the new money in a conference of old money, and that doesn't ever go over well. It just wouldn't be a fit, and that is important and telling. We wouldn't fit geographically, regionally, historically, or academically. In the ACC, we're 4 for 4.
We should relish the opportunity to be the exception to the rule and buck an invitation to the SEC should it come. We should, as so many have put it, politely say "No, thank you. We like where we are, but we appreciate the offer." We should make a statement to the rest of the college football world that is caught up in conference expansion that there are factors, when combined, that outweigh money. We are in the perfect conference for us right now, and that's all that SHOULD matter.
So in the end, yes, the SEC can flash dollar bills at us. Yes, they can offer us the chance to put our name in stone and forge a deeper football history. But we can do that all by ourselves. We ARE Virginia Tech, and we don't NEED the SEC any more than we need that beautiful delicious looking slice of pie, enticing us, calling out to us after a wonderful dinner that left us full. It may look good and leave our mouth watering, but we're full as it is after our wonderful dinner.
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I agree/disagree
First, nice article.
i agree that we “married” the ACC sort-of when we whined like the kid that always gets picked last. WE knew we were good enough, we just didn’t understand why no one else could see that besides us, and since then the ACC i think has realized we have saved Swofford’s ass.
I disagree that we should stay put. Everyone seems to be so scared we will lose games in the SEC. I think what everyone isn’t realizing is that COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS CHANGING!! It is being made to resemble the NFL more and more, and with that you aren’t going to have a team that can walk through their conference undefeated each year. Example being a 2 loss SEC team this year would probably beat us out to go to the NCG this year if we went undefeated. So let’s stay in the ACC while FSU leaves, a Clemson leaves and we will be the Boise State of the ACC…and I know most of you disagree but it’s true..oh but no worries..the ACC will pick up Syracuse and Pitt to replace them, so all will be good! lol
Lastly, why does everyone throw up that we will be playing in Texas every week?? Look at the map!! we would be in a DIVISION, a DIVISION with teams close to us, UT, Vandy, USCe, UF, UG….unless I’m mentally retarded these schools are just as close as most ACC teams except for UVA and the North Carolina teams?!? Our travel wouldn’t be impacted as much as one may think if you actually set down and compare apples to apples.
I honestly feel that for Frank to fill the glass case that has began to collect cobwebs that we need to make a move NOW and not be forced to in the future..we wanted out of the BE for a reason, look at the big picture and see what’s happening to the washed up ACC is something we don’t want to be a part of….
In regards to the travel aspect
If you will carefully read what I wrote, I am not talking about football in that section. Nobody knows what scheduling would look like in a 14 or 16-team SEC. So you’re not mentally handicapped, nor am I, nor is anyone else. We have as much information right now as everybody else, including the SEC who has not decided on admission of more schools yet and therefore has not yet set up how scheduling would work. So I’m in the dark as much as everyone else, including you. We just don’t know right now. But it is completely possible that our non-revenue sports will be making multiple trips as a whole to College Station each year. In football we play out of division conference opponents as it is and would in the SEC too, so it’s very plausible that sports with more games/matches/events/what have you to have to play out of division conference opponents.
Also there has NEVER been the case where an undefeated BCS team has not made the national championship game because of a 2-loss team. I don’t think that is likely to happen whichever conference we are in.
by chicagomaroon on Aug 13, 2011 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
once again I agree
That our non-revenue generating sports would make the university struggle financially…but it’s eventually going to happen anyways is my point. There WILL be 4 super-conferences, it’s inevitable once the SEC goes to 14 that the others will follow suit or trump that and go to 16 which will eventually be where the 4 big conferences will set.
And i apologize to the swimming team and women’s softball team for not thinking about them during all of this..but have you guys ever looked to the left when walking up to the stadium on the South end and noticed that there is a softball game going on as you walk in? No? Most don’t, because it’s almost irrelevant.
Football pays the bills, and if you go look at an ESPN article from a few weeks ago the athletics department is well in the black when it comes to money.
and you are right..there has NEVER been a 2 team beat out an undefeated..but you add an FSU, aTm, and a Mizzou to the SEC and I will bet you my house that it happens.
by o2intimidateu on Aug 13, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I for one am on board with whatever the administration decides is the best route.
I’m not paying the bills so my opinion doesn’t count anyway.
I Agree But...
I don’t think Va Tech should move to the SEC either but your use of the non-revenue sports is a red herring that comes up all too often in these discussions. With the possible exception of baseball, the other sports simply don’t play schedules that are comparable to basketball and football. You used the swimming/diving team as your example so let’s look at last year’ schedule found here:
http://www.hokiesports.com/swimming/schedule.html
You’ll notice that there is only one dual meet against an ACC school and that’s UVA. The other nine duals are all non-conference (College of Charleston, Richmond, Indiana, Penn St, Louisville, Cincinnati, Kentucky, Radford, William&Mary) and the majority of those are “three-way” engagements where each school faces the other two over the course of two days. Other than that you’ve got the Yellow Jacket Invitational (Ga Tech), the Volunteer Invitational (Tenn), and the Virginia Tech Invitational before you get to ACC and NCAA swims.
Just to show that this isn’t unusual, a quick look at a representative schedule from the SEC (Auburn) shows that they competed in the Yellow Jacket and Volunteer Invitationals as well and scheduled a total of three dual meets against conference competition last year.
It’s highly unlikely that a conference switch would change the travel costs of the swimming and diving team one iota because they, and most non-revenue sports, don’t play the same type of round robin schedules common to basketball and football.
There are plenty of reasons to keep the Hokies in the ACC but non-revenue sport travel costs isn’t one of them.
Good point
I definitely should’ve checked that out and used a more conventionally scheduled sport. I just went for the obscure. However, most non-revenue and Olympic sports DO schedule that way. It was just my error of using the Swimming and Diving team schedule to try to convey that.
Checked the schedules
Don’t schedule that way
Swimming/Diving
Track&Field
Cross Country
Golf
Tennis
DO schedule that way
Baseball
Soccer (women’s only, 8 team SEC league)
Softball
Volleyball
Schedule doesn’t matter because there’s no SEC league
Lax
Wrestling
Men’s soccer
So it’s baseball, women’s soccer, volleyball, and softball that are “non-revenue” sports that would have to play a round robin schedule in the SEC.
Provided the SEC plan matches that one
But thanks for all the help, that is incredibly interesting and informative.
by chicagomaroon on Aug 13, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun topic for an article, but I think we all have a pretty good idea that the chances of VT being part of a theoretical 16 team SEC are pretty low, and the chances of Tech joining a 14 team league to balance aTm are about zero. I don’t see much interest on either side, nor where it fits well for either side. There are possibly as many as 5 or 6 ACC teams that would be more or at least as likely.
"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav
by otisnixon'sparty on Aug 13, 2011 9:49 PM EDT reply actions
Since you enjoy it so much
One last bit of analysis.
Assuming Va Tech teams take buses to all ACC schools except Miami (900 miles), that leaves BC as the longest trip (704 miles). There are exactly two current SEC schools further away from Blacksburg than BC. Arkansas (942) and LSU (890). College Station would be the third. Yes, the average trip will be longer because you’re losing the cluster of four teams 200 miles away in NC but it’s not like most of the SEC schools are a long drive from campus.
Mr. Weaver’s comments notwithstanding, there doesn’t seem to be a requirement to dramatically increase the number of teams traveling by air.
Definitely. Every other conference
Has a great distance among them. There is only a very small subset of schools who are in a tightly controlled geographical conference. The ACC has the NC schools, which VT is luckily very close to. No other conference has this cluster. Big east ranges from Marquette to Providence, and let’s throw Ft. Worth in there too. The PAC12 from Tucson to Seattle. Hell, Boston and Miami aren’t exactly close to ANYBODY in the ACC. These schools still have non-rev sports. AD’s are smarter than that. The geography argument is just weak.
by Chazz Micheal Michealzz on Aug 14, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't that speak to the perfection of our situation?
Because as I see it, you just aided my argument.
by chicagomaroon on Aug 14, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Perfection - Rev and Non-Rev
Let’s face it. Revenue is necessary. And nothing garners more revenue than SEC football. And VT is a football school. Everyone who reads this blog cares first and foremost about VT football. Is being in the 4th best football conference perfection?
Ok, so basketball has gotten “better.” VT did make the NCAA tournament once, but the ACC basketball landscaped changed for the worst with the ACC expansion. They’re no longer the best conference. Only 2 schools are elite, and the rest are mediocre. So let’s look at # of bids, ACC vs SEC:
2011: ACC=4; SEC=5
2010: ACC=6; SEC=4
2009: ACC=7; SEC=3
2008: ACC=4; SEC=6
2007: ACC=7; SEC=5
2006: ACC=4; SEC=6
So what can we conclude, yes the ACC is overall a better, but not by much. And while you can suggest the ACC has improved VT basketball, it’s difficult to say, especially when Greenberg deserves some of the credit.
And I think the Non-Rev issue has been put to rest by Steve. You can always MAKE IT WORK. No matter the conference your in.
Perfection is NEVER achievable. And if you’re not getting better, you’re getting passed by. Beamer knows this. He’s made changes on his coaching staff. He’s improving the facilities. He knows what SEC football would mean to the name-brand and FUTURE of VT football. And if Weaver doesn’t, well that’s going to be a loss for VT.
by Chazz Micheal Michealzz on Aug 14, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it's worth, I think the endgame involves 4 big conferences.
The Big 12 will eventually be eaten alive, and either the Big East or the ACC will eventually give way. (Likely, the two will mostly merge, with a few castaways headed to the Big Ten or the SEC so that the numbers work out.)
That’s toughest to resolve in the Big East, where all those annoying basketball only schools reside. But they can make a special arrangement or split apart or something.
Short term, it’s SEC or ACC if Tech is invited. Long term, it’s SEC or ACC/BE composite. At least, by my estimate. If that happens, then it’s a matter of how you see the conferences shaping out.
I agree
I might be a Virginia fan, but I got into it with a couple of SEC mouthbreathers today who insisted the ACC wad the college football equivalent of the “special olympics”, and thus Virginia Tech- how did they put it- “Even if you win, you’re still a (expletive).” Implying, of course, that the SEC would wipe the floor with VT.
It was strange vehemently defending VT, but, there you go. Even if we don’t always get along, I’m not going to put up with that sort of bullshit. IMHO, the SEC is inhabited by lots more folks just like those chuckleheads. Clemson denies any SEC rumblings. If FSU wants to go, fark em. I’d rather see a Commonwealth team win than those blowhards. Let’s raid the Big East and take WVU, Pitt, UCONN… maybe UCF for another Florida team.
by ragekage on Aug 14, 2011 1:07 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Exactly
Being on the other side of expansion when Virginia lobbied for our arrival to the ACC, I was 100% for it, because as I said in the post, the ACC was PERFECT for us. But now, I say if FSU and and or Clemson goes, who cares if we made the right decision for us. You can only control what YOU do. Therefore we shouldn’t leave to the SEC based on what we think FSU or Clemson will do. We won’t do that, but we shouldn’t feel pressured by the situation to make a football-centric decision based on their conference prestige in that sport when we are IN the perfect situation. I’m perfectly fine to accept our fate in the ACC if we make the right decision.
by chicagomaroon on Aug 14, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't have put it better
And personally, i think, or hope, the scenario I outlined above will go down and London will help kick our football team back to where it belongs- do what Beamer did to Tech in the 80s- and then we can have two Commonwealth teams dominating the ACC and the NCAA as a whole. That’s what pissed me off about the SEC jerkoffs. Even, as I said, we don’t get along, there’s no denying Beamer built a helluva team out of a wallowing program- and he’s kept it good for and unprecedented amount of time.
Besides, I don’t think Tech has nearly enough NCAA ethics violations to qualify to be in the SEC. ;)
by ragekage on Aug 14, 2011 1:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ok so.
So in your opinion what should VPI do if the worst case happens? Say FSU goes to the SEC and is followed thereafter by Clemson..the ACC stands with it’s hands in it’s pockets while the PAC12 expands as well as the Big12, and the ACC begins to crumble and dissolve…What direction should we go then? Should we climb to the top of the flagpole on the ship and stay aboard until it sinks or jump on the first lifeboat that hits the water?
What if we are forced to go to a revamped northeastern conference where we travel to Wisconsin, Michigan, OSU, and such? We lose our recruiting grounds and we travel as far/farther than we would have in the SEC, do we then look back and say oops we F’d up..i guess that’s my biggest point. YES the ACC is the PERFECT place for VT…but we are basing that off of the past and present day..not next week or the week after..
by o2intimidateu on Aug 14, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The ACC isn't going anywhere...
…they are still in a good position to expand, themselves. I know a lot of you don’t like WVU, and frankly I don’t give a shit, but adding a WVU/Pitt/Syracuse would be great for both of the ACC’s biggest revenue sports, football and basketball. All 3 of those teams could compete in both sports and you know it. WVU may not have the market or the academics, but Moutaineer fans TRAVEL as well as any other, and more conference money equals gradually better academics (Penn State to the Big 10, anyone?)
The ACC is the best conference for Tech. The SEC may be throwing money at you now, but EVERYTHING is about to change. Once the dust settles and the conferences all reemerge looking totally different… who’s to say the ACC won’t compete? Besides… don’t leave your research partners in the dust… these are institutions of higher learning, afterall.
by MountaineerAirman on Aug 14, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I contemplated a response to who we would add
And my list looked like this.
1. WVU
2. Pitt
3. ECU
4 and 5. Louisville and Kentucky package deal. Kentucky might not be a buyer of this, but I think if we bring in Louisville in a package deal with them and pitch to them the opportunity to play in a basketball conference with the likes of Duke and UNC plus the addition of WVU and Pittt make us the most attractive conference. Plus there is the opportunity for them to perhaps be more competitive in football.
Alternate 4 and 5. Syracuse and USF to maintain a stranglehold on Florida.
Additionally if we had to have or wish to go into the SUPER-conference stratosphere we have the option of adding UConn OR to add untapped potential out of the Sun Belt the likes of Troy, FIU or FAU. Again, rough to think about that right now, but potential is there. Big name coaches, growing programs, schools and fan bases and big media markets in play.
by chicagomaroon on Aug 14, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I also want to note that....
…despite being a Mountaineer I do not hate Virginia Tech. My very first collegiate football game was Virginia Tech vs. Rutgers and I grew up going to Virginia Tech football games with my best friend. I even wear nothing but maroon and orange all around my small home town in West Virginia when you guys play in a bowl game. Haha.
by MountaineerAirman on Aug 14, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding ECU would be great for football but doesn’t tap any new markets..if that is the ultimate goal is for these conferences to approach ESPN with the largest batch of DMA’s that they tap into then I feel that the ACC will go north instead of south. If FSU left I DO see them trying to pick up USF or UCF to keep a more northern Florida market, but everyone else would be north.
i know we are putting the cart before the horse, but it’s fun to have a conversation about all of this. Whatever happens I just hope that we are considered “valuable” to whichever conference that we end up with, and it is a good fit for us. I personally would love to go to Morgantown again and be scared of being blundered with a toilet or couch again. :)
Well, I don't think y'all would have to worry about that Miami rivalry anymore
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 17, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions

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